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Release Meeting: 14 Nov 2016

Details

1. Urgent Task review

  • 14063 (Closed): Bootstrap fails to correctly detect path when mod_rewrite engine is disabled. Fix checked into Item14180 branch.
  • 14117 (Waiting for Release): TML sends TinyMCE into an eternal loop Upstream bug, no progress.
  • 14126 (No Action Required): Random topics or webs get access restricted No recreation, or other supporting reports.
  • 14195 (Closed): Loop in Foswiki::UI::View::revisionsAround under some conditions. Fix checked in - probably ready for release.
  • 14202 (Closed): PageCache tweaks to control dependency growth. - extensive discussion on cache performance. The name of a new function was changed. Changes will be tested on Foswiki.org

2. Development Discussion

  • DependenciesFreedom Under Investigation: Foswiki dependencies and installation simplicity.
    Quite a bit of discussion on the new CPAN dependency installer. Currently an experimental branch.

(No feedback yet on the following experimental branch.)
  • 14180 (Closed): Bootstrap enhancements and refactoring. Bootstrap changes
    • Refactored into separate Foswiki::Configure::Bootstrap - no operational impact
    • Pub path replaces /bin with /pub vs. /bin/../pub
    • Properly handles apache ENV with mod_rewrite disabled.
    • Detects a proxy for properly setting DefaultUrlHost
    • Tested with mod_perl, nginx+fastcgi, apache with & without mod_rewrite.

3. Release plan / strategy

Review of features / Feature branches

New proposals - Proposals on 14 day clock

No new proposals need review

14 Day timer ended - Last call

No proposals reaching 14-day threshold.

Major redesign proposals / Development discussion for 3.0+ / 4.0

3. Next release

Patch release 2.1.3

  • Release from: Release02x01
  • Beta start: TBD
  • Release target: August 2016

Feature release 2.2.0

We are at the feature freeze, and still no proposals on the ReleasePlan have been merged! Agreed to defer 2.2 until December

  • Feature Freeze: 1 Dec 2016
  • Release from: master
  • Beta start: 15 Dec 2016
  • Release target: Jan 2017

Next meeting - - Monday 28 Nov 2016 1300Z — ReleaseMeeting02x02_20161128

IRC Log

13:38:12 JulianLevens joined the channel
13:50:08 gac410 joined the channel.
13:51:46 gac410 Hi everyone. g'morning. End of daylight savings time here. No coffee yet and not awake.
13:53:39 JulianLevens good morning to you to
13:54:04 JulianLevens I've had a few coffee already, albeit decaf and I think I'm awake
13:57:45 jomo joined the channel.
13:57:54 jomo hiall..
13:58:09 gac410 hi jomo
14:02:37 gac410 Hello everone. It's 1301Z ... are we ready to start?
14:03:15 JulianLevens Yep
14:03:18 gac410 First up - ReleaseBlockers
14:04:37 gac410 There are 4 that list under PatchReleaseBlocker, but only one practical for the patch release.
14:05:30 gac410 Fixes for Item14205 - with help of Vadim, can be tested. I'll probably merge.
14:06:25 gac410 It's some work on the certificate wizard, and the email autoconfig. Makes it more reliable. Newer vesions of IO::Socket::SSL wouldn't work.
14:07:18 gac410 Not a blocker, but Item13936 also has a test branch.
14:08:00 gac410 On some servers, the email is rejected when "From" == "To" on a email We ran into that with the infra list for foswiki.org
14:08:52 gac410 The patch adds an optional EXPERT config for a WikiAgent name & email, used when sending messages. Defaults to WikiWebMaster if omitted.b
14:10:01 gac410 I was debating whether that one needed a FeatureRequest, or if I could slip it into a patch release.
14:10:50 JulianLevens What are the issues with it?
14:11:02 gac410 If I merge those two, I'm ready to build Release 2.1.3
14:11:19 gac410 with?
14:11:43 JulianLevens Why not wait to 2.2 at least that's a minor release?
14:12:07 gac410 I'm wondering if we will have a 2.2 in the forseeable future. No feature work yet.
14:12:12 JulianLevens With the EXPERT option possibly needing an FP
14:12:54 gac410 It's a fuzzy one. All it does it add another identity for sending email. And if you don't use it it's exactly like prior releases.
14:12:55 JulianLevens Well I'm active with locales with QueryBackLinks to follow, I might make Dec 1 for the former
14:14:05 JulianLevens Looks like low risk to me, not even sure it's a new feature just extending an existing feature, but I don't know the code
14:14:08 gac410 So I'm leaning toward calling it a bugfix not a feature. It really doesn't impact any user operation unless activated.
14:15:18 gac410 Code is 2 new config keys, and changing the various email templates to use Wiki Administrator <webmaster@foswiki.org> in place of Wiki Administrator <webmaster@foswiki.org>
14:15:19 JulianLevens FWIW: I'm not concerned about it, it's your call
14:16:10 JulianLevens How would anybody be impacted with locally tailored email templates
14:16:11 gac410 and 2 lines in Foswiki.pm macro init that adds the new variables, set to the original values new values
14:16:31 gac410 Not at all. Existing webmaster@foswiki.org key remains.
14:16:36 JulianLevens Of course
14:16:57 gac410 Unless they had added their own new parameters that collided.
14:17:11 JulianLevens Highly unlikely
14:17:53 gac410 Y. That was the only part that suggested maybe a feature request was required. So my thought is to merge and put an alpha on foswiki.org
14:18:50 gac410 There is one other bug - Item14208 - extender.pl hardcoded the repository for cli extensions. I'll probably pick that one up too.
14:18:50 JulianLevens Fine by me
14:19:51 gac410 So everyone. Check your bug lists ... Anything you want in a 2.1.3 - please prioritize within the next week lets say.
14:20:12 gac410 I'll build an Alpha on the weekend, and do an email to Translations list asking translators to get a start.
14:21:29 jomo one question - what happens if someone upgrades the foswiki, and he using his OWN templates for the email handling. Need change them to use it the WIKIAGENTNAME?
14:21:48 gac410 No. The old templates will work just fine.
14:22:04 gac410 I'm adding two new keys for name & email, not changing the old ones.
14:22:27 jomo then probably no problem and could slip without FP.
14:23:08 gac410 And in thining about it, there really ought to always have been the distinction. the WebMaster is a "Contact" address - email webmaster for help. But email originated from the wiki isn't reallly coming from the webmaster, but from the wiki itself.
14:23:36 gac410 If you add in things like dkim signing, really the wiki should not be sending emails with the webmaster's identity.
14:23:47 jomo yeah - it is usually something as some_thing_no_reply@example.com
14:23:57 jomo aka added the no_reply smile
14:24:21 gac410 Right. So the fix feels right.
14:24:27 jomo smile
14:25:02 gac410 Some news to report. We've lost another developer
14:25:18 jomo ?
14:25:30 gac410 JanKrueger aka jast. He will still hang out, but he's changed jobs and no longer using Foswiki in his work.
14:26:00 jomo he managed many wikis right?
14:26:03 jomo ibm?
14:26:25 gac410 no, Modell-Aachen they had a service based upon Foswiki - with lots of local modifications.
14:26:33 jomo ah...
14:26:54 jomo frown, sad smile
14:27:01 jomo bad news
14:27:03 jomo frown, sad smile
14:27:28 gac410 Modell-Aachen also hosts our translate.foswiki.org server. That thankfully will continue. But I expect we may eventually want to find another host.
14:27:55 jomo but model-aachen will confitune using FW... so, hopefully someone taking his position...
14:27:56 JulianLevens bad new indeed, especially as he's talented
14:28:20 jomo yeah! frown, sad smile
14:28:32 JulianLevens The whole of Model-Aachen use FW there business is based around it
14:28:45 JulianLevens s/there/their/
14:29:04 gac410 Y. though when someone leaves due to real-life changes, it's no where near as negative as a project dispute. Maybe it's an opportunity to spread Foswiki to a new business big grin
14:29:26 JulianLevens Let's hope so
14:29:58 gac410 So ... any more bugs to discuss. Or onto feature requests.
14:30:36 gac410 One new proposal from Vadim vrurg - https://foswiki.org/Development/OOConfigSpecsFormat
14:30:57 jomo hm... me still don't understand it fully.
14:31:20 gac410 And one more hitting the 14 day timer https://foswiki.org/Development/DependenciesFreedom
14:31:28 gac410 Okay . vrurg ... are you around?
14:32:03 gac410 The OOConfigSpecs. This really is purely internal jomo. The Config.spec and Foswiki.spec files are used to drive the Configure UI.
14:32:15 gac410 It's the metadata behind LocalSite.cfg
14:32:46 jomo yes, the current is more than clear for me... wink
14:32:59 jomo just not the things in the FP smile
14:33:33 JulianLevens I do not have a fundamental problem with either, or at least with the principle behind them. I need time to consider them more
14:33:53 JulianLevens I am positive in principle
14:33:58 gac410 The Config.spec / Foswiki.spec Used to be processed with a "Do" ... to prime the config with defaults, then overridden with at "do" of LocalSite.cfg
14:34:50 jomo i understand the current implememtation... wink just not understand fully the proposed one...
14:35:09 gac410 So Foswiki when creating a new config would do Foswiki.spec do each Confg.spec, and then save the results as LocalSite.cfg. But, it does NOT work that way any more.
14:35:19 JulianLevens I've been considering combining DEPENDENCIES, MANIFEST and Spec files into one. Part and parcel of improving the SCM of the project
14:35:49 JulianLevens And being able to automate build, testing etc with reliable results
14:36:05 gac410 There is a custom parser in Configure that takes apart the comments embedded in the Spec files and processing them into the internals.
14:36:33 JulianLevens y, I came across that
14:36:54 gac410 So vrurg proposed storing the Spec files into a perl structure, which would certainly simplify then parser.
14:37:06 gac410 if not eliminate it.
14:37:26 gac410 At least that's my understanding from a 10,000 meter level.
14:37:36 jomo i very concerned with this sentence: But intermixing means only one thing: the internal structure would store not only value field for the config data but few other fields with this value's attributes.
14:38:05 jomo this sound for me as WRONG design.
14:38:06 gac410 It's the default value, not the running config value.
14:38:25 JulianLevens and possibly other meta-data
14:38:38 gac410 LocalSite.cfg will still have the runtime value. (I hope)
14:39:20 JulianLevens I've been considering the whole SCM/build process and I'm not sure it's enough by itself
14:39:49 gac410 It's really a minor change if you think about it. The config.spec has the Default value, and all the other metadata is encoded into the perl comments.
14:40:35 gac410 He is proposing storing the metadata along with the default into a hash instead of needing to parse it from the comments.
14:40:53 JulianLevens y, I'm not likely to raise a concern. It doesn't block my ideas in any way
14:40:54 jomo hm... for me this ISN'T minor - if i understand right the FP.... and IMHO converting the spec to perl-format isn't buy nothing for us..
14:42:01 JulianLevens I think it does - if the comments containing code are parsed out into separate named meta-fields, then
14:42:18 JulianLevens it will be easier to extend the meta-options
14:42:40 gac410 As a user it has no impact, As a Developer, it simplifies writing the config.spec / reading the spec. And simplifies configure that parses the spec on every load.
14:43:49 gac410 Exactly JulianLevens ... If you need to add some different meta about a key - say to drive a custom "checker" you can add it without having to revise the spec parser to handle it.
14:44:45 gac410 This one really needs Crawford's input too. CDot is the master of the spec file wink
14:44:53 jomo me will never raise any concern /im not an developer :)/ - just for me this sound as an very wrong design...
14:45:18 JulianLevens How will the new spec file be parsed? via do or is there something safer?
14:45:46 JulianLevens I'm thinking of malicious spec files placed in extensions
14:45:47 jomo exacltly - the proposed is "perl-calls"... frown, sad smile
14:45:50 gac410 Don't know currently need vrurg
14:46:02 jomo in the FP - clearly - perl-calls... cry
14:46:52 JulianLevens That won't necessarily stop the basic idea. JSON structure is similar-ish and even JSON::PP would be fast enough in this case
14:47:38 gac410 Y that was my only thought, It the format of a perl structure right, or should it be JSON or XML or some other well known format.
14:47:44 jomo JSON is OK, XML is OK, YAML is OK - but please no direct perl-calls... cry
14:48:16 jomo so NO more "do" smile
14:49:36 gac410 jomo, it's not really perl calls, but it is perl code. It's a nested hash of key => value where value can b e { morekey => value }
14:50:16 jomo ok - so terminology - i mean - no perl code in the spec. files.
14:50:33 gac410 The storage format could still be json or xml, resulting in the same hash representation I think.
14:51:01 jomo the LSC (and spec too) should be parseable - universally - not only by "perl"...
14:51:55 gac410 Well LSC we want to be simple and really fast. key = value ... It doesn't need anything else - embedded meta, etc.
14:52:15 jomo ok - thats right.
14:52:46 jomo then why we need the:
14:52:48 jomo the internal structure would store not only value field for the config data but few other fields with this value's attributes.
14:52:55 jomo for the NORMAL foswiki run.
14:53:17 vrurg Hi all!
14:53:29 jomo the configuraion management is totally fifferent beast as the normal-foswiki runtime...
14:53:31 vrurg I'm late today.
14:53:35 gac410 needs to read it more closely ... heya vrurg ... ears been burning?
14:53:47 jomo hi, you're very needed here smile
14:54:01 vrurg No, daylight time change missed. frown, sad smile
14:54:39 gac410 had the same challenge. 1300Z comes too early ... luckily Monday is trash pick-up day, or I'd never make it.
14:55:11 vrurg Shall we push it for 1hr?
14:55:36 JulianLevens What time is it there?
14:55:38 vrurg Ok, I see there're questions to me but it'd take time to read through. A brief?
14:55:45 jomo we can't move the Rel-meet to 1500Z ? (for the EU it is still inside working hours) imho...
14:55:46 gac410 I'm more concerned about getting more attendance. I'm willing to keep the 1300Z
14:55:49 vrurg 8:55 on the east coast.
14:56:15 jomo vrurg: one question (unfortunaley wide one): need explain the: the internal structure would store not only value field for the config data but few other fields with this value's attributes.
14:56:28 gac410 right, so meeting start now for me is 8: AM. Not all that bad.
14:57:01 JulianLevens jomo: meta-attributes, e.g. validation options for use in configure
14:57:31 gac410 JulianLevens: re malicious spec file in extension. That's rather minor, in that if you can install an extension, any part could be malicious. js, perl, etc. Spec is least of worries.
14:57:34 vrurg jomo: Not completely true, as I wrote it on the topic. Meta from specs would be fetched on request only.
14:57:38 jomo ok, why we need such fields for the normal foswiki runtime?
14:57:57 vrurg gac410: Absolutely correct.
14:58:19 JulianLevens The default-value in the spec is copied into LSC, but user can change that in configure
14:59:14 vrurg jomo: For saving, for configure. There could be other applications we don't foresee now.
14:59:15 jomo we have (even currently) 2 different things: 1.) loading the LSC 2.) config-management - for the normal FW runtime we need only the LSC (1) - and only for the config-management we need the "additional fields"...
14:59:23 JulianLevens Right it's not a great risk
15:00:04 vrurg jomo: I want to split config data processing and config management UI from each other.
15:00:04 JulianLevens I converted a project using perl-structure to JSON, it was better for some reason
15:00:37 vrurg Current approach limit developers in their access to config internals.
15:01:41 JulianLevens How urgent is this for the OO work?
15:01:48 jomo ok, so just want ensure: for the normal foswiki runtime (aka, outside of the /bin/configure) here will be NO other field attached to the config, even in the internal representation... is this correct? if yes - i have no more questions big grin
15:02:10 JulianLevens Could FW 3.0 launch without this?
15:02:14 gac410 jomo, there are actually 4 things. 1) Config runtime (LSC), 2) Config defaults (Spec), 3) Config UI (Spec comments), 4) Config validations (Spec comments comprising javascript snippets)
15:02:33 jomo me concerniing just about the 1
15:02:46 vrurg For example, I want the new extensions to get into. There it would be possible to replace current config with, say, one saving into a SQL DB. But saving currently is such a headache (not to use harsher words) that nobody would take a task of writing such extension.
15:03:06 vrurg jomo: corrent.
15:03:07 jomo aka - if the runtime LSC doesn't will have any unecessary meta attached - i will be perfectly happy...
15:03:33 vrurg JulianLevens: It will but there will be no 'killer feature'. And I think we need one.
15:04:21 vrurg And to my view new extensions + steps towards possible clusterization of foswiki is what might be that feature.
15:04:56 gac410 Yes, 3.0 is in desperate need of a killer (user facing) feature or upgrade will be a really tough sell. We still have lots of sites running 1.1.x that have not bothered to upgrade because of the data migration requirement.
15:05:13 gac410 Just was helping another one yesterday
15:05:53 gac410 I think that was really Lavr's biggest concern. All this internal muckity muck is of no direct interest to the user base of a wiki.
15:06:51 vrurg jomo: I wonder what makes you opposed to keeping helper data in memory? The footprint? Just for the info.
15:07:58 gac410 I need to tune out for a bit. Keep going.
15:08:08 vrurg gac410 is right and I would agree to Lavr's concern too. Though Lavr is willing for UI features only. But I think in terms of scalability too.
15:08:48 gac410 Y, that would be a big one. Really his significant performance concerns are another side of scalabiility.
15:09:25 JulianLevens You'd need to keep the meta-data in a shadow hash to %cfg, wouldn't you?
15:09:38 jomo code and loginc cleannes. The main problem of the current foswiki. SPAGHETTY and full of uncesessaty data (like the current $session - even recursice references) frown, sad smile Simply thing should be where they reaaly belong and not spagethy-everythingf in the memory.... for the runtime, NO METADATA is needed (because the condiguration (for the runtime) is static thing).
15:10:58 vrurg I wanna the new extensions for 3.0 because they would allow a developer to have more freedom in extending Foswiki – up to complete replacement of certain core frameworks. I wanna Foswiki servers to get rid of local data storages and move towards any kind of storage – and all this without the core developers participation. Only by extension developers.
15:12:17 jomo also, if someone manages the configuration OUTSIDE of the foswiki (like me, currenly me using YAML) - an patching the Foswiki code in every release, replacing the "runtime do" with YAML smile
15:12:30 vrurg JulianLevens: %Foswiki::cfg has to be avoided and deprecated as much as possible. Otherwise the config data hash would be a tied one one meta is read into memory. So, for the code nothing would change.
15:12:41 gac410 So regarding the new OO extensions. MichaelDaum raised a concern. I think it's merely because there is no simple example of what a new extension would look like.
15:14:11 vrurg jomo: My answer to your YAML matter is in the new extensions again. You could write one for yourself or publish it – and forget about patching.
15:14:46 MichaelDaum current LSC is too monolithic
15:14:52 jomo but only if the config-data will NOT have attached some unnecessary meta (for the normal foswiki runtime) smile
15:14:57 MichaelDaum imagine we once get integrated into debian
15:15:28 vrurg But then again, to implement saving one would need to understand all the undocumented internals of ConfigurePlugin by now. I want to get rid of these and have a clear API to config data and specs.
15:15:37 MichaelDaum current best practice is to have a .d directory where additional components are placed one after the other by the package manager
15:16:27 MichaelDaum like /.../xorg.conf.d/*.conf
15:16:53 MichaelDaum or /etc/apt/source.list.d/*list
15:16:55 MichaelDaum etc
15:17:04 jomo +++
15:17:06 jomo also, please NOTE one thing - In the Plack you can specify the env/conf as "production" and "development" - the Placked FW should accept such thing too...
15:18:05 MichaelDaum there is one master config that then does something like #include /etc/nginx/mods-enabled/*conf
15:18:10 MichaelDaum and things proceed from there
15:18:33 vrurg jomo: I won't be taking care of such details like additional support for Plack. Simply have no resources for this.
15:19:05 MichaelDaum there might be a way to program the configure script to enable a newly installed plugin ... never tried, guess so.
15:19:13 JulianLevens Can I come back to 2.2 for a moment
15:19:23 jomo vrurg: agree and understand - just DO NOT develop something wich disallowes in the future such development...
15:19:52 MichaelDaum well, who are we to disallow contributions of that kind wink
15:20:16 JulianLevens I'm tasked with fixing locale and QueryBackLinks
15:20:42 vrurg jomo: How does more information about config would prevent these developements? smile More additional info is always good for a developer (I don't speak of performance matters here).
15:20:57 gac410 Okay .. back to 2.2. Right now there still has been almost no movement on features for 2.2 We keep pushing the freeze date off a few months at a time.
15:21:03 JulianLevens vrurg has already removed locale from the OO branch and I do not see it worth my time to remove that from FW 2 anymore - there are some fixes and docs required
15:21:44 vrurg MichaelDaum: would you remove your concern on https://foswiki.org/Development/OONewPluginModel?
15:22:06 JulianLevens I want to finish off locale fixes and QueryBackLinks then I could spend time on OO and help vrurg
15:22:07 MichaelDaum y, sec.
15:22:53 gac410 Current freeze date is 01 December. Michael, do you think you'll have time to complete any of your proposals before 12/1 or should we push again out to lets say Feb 2017
15:23:14 JulianLevens More extensive locale enhancements are possible but that is better waiting for the OO branch and someone actually needing extra locale capability
15:23:16 vrurg MichaelDaum: thanks, I will then merge it into the main OO branch.
15:23:25 MichaelDaum I am flooded with last minute projects of orgs that want to spent money before 31.12.16
15:23:43 MichaelDaum vrurg, awesome
15:24:20 MichaelDaum gac410, yes, please delay freeze a bit more. thanks.
15:24:44 gac410 So for 2.2 proposals, we really have very little for Dec. then. Need to re-engage with CDot to see if he has recovered enough from his 2.0 configure burnout.
15:25:21 JulianLevens I'll still try to finish of my FP work by Dec, after all I like to play with all that OO goodness
15:25:47 vrurg would have another proposal in a day or two and that would be all I see for 3.0.
15:26:14 gac410 That would be good JulianLevens ... I'm continnuing to merge master -> OO branch on occasion. So anything done on master should be fine in 3.0 as well.
15:26:29 MichaelDaum I am overwhelmed by the sheer amount of writing going on in current proposals on F.O. .... gosh please, think about us having to read all this ... kidding wink
15:26:36 gac410 is afraid to ask ... what next vrurg wink
15:26:53 vrurg gac410: You know, we discussed it last week. Feature sets.
15:27:02 gac410 Ah... that .. okay good
15:27:21 vrurg That's something simple and something we could even port back into 2.0
15:27:31 MichaelDaum to all: if you are commenting on any dev topics, please keep it short and sweet.
15:27:48 jomo understands smile
15:28:04 MichaelDaum was not going to point fingers ... but now that you say smile
15:29:15 JulianLevens Some of my work appears to overlap some of vrurgs
15:29:33 JulianLevens another reason to work on OO ASAP
15:30:45 vrurg BTW, if we let the new specs go then I will definitely need sombody to patch the ConfigurePlugin to make it support the new standard.
15:31:51 vrurg And perhaps there would be some good points on implementation. I wanna make it in a way to have minimal amount of patching required for the ConfigurePlugins.
15:32:59 JulianLevens When I'm available I'll start to help wherever I can
15:33:09 gac410 Oh ... DependencyFreedom. That one could also be a 2.2 feature. Completely standalone.
15:33:54 vrurg gac410: Ah, right. I forgot to mention it. It was developed to be this way too.
15:34:22 JulianLevens Well no promises but it's in my interest area
15:34:23 vrurg JulianLevens: thanks a lot! I'm looking forward for it.
15:34:47 gac410 once i get 2.1.3 out i'll get back to 2.2
15:38:09 vrurg It seems like no more subjects for today?
15:40:51 JulianLevens Seems so
15:41:11 JulianLevens Either that or we're all worn out wink
15:48:31 gac410 Thanks everyone. ... 2 weeks. Next meeting Nov 28.
15:48:49 vrurg thanks!

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